Not a popular view, but one does have to ask whether many of the actions were staged. It would hardly help Abramovic's career if nothing particular happened to her. A couple of rambunctious teenagers might well behave awfully, but civilized, educated museum goers, I doubt it. The event was photographed but not filmed. Also, why only men? Why no man with a wife or girlfriend telling him to step in. Also, while it's popular to think of men as violent misogynistic savages, many men would take severe action against someone hurting a woman. I mean, they'd beat the shit of the guy who cut her. No, I very strongly think the men were part of the act and she arranged before the show who would do what.
Your essay is a powerful public service announcement, Katie. Behavioral scientists know there is a fine balance between stunned silence and appropriate intervention. Experimental work by Solomon Asch, Stanley Milgram, John Darley and Bib Latane over the last 75 years has shown how powerful and effective behaviors like the ones you suggest can be in averting disaster. This was an important part of a first-year composition and critical thinking course I taught at Berea College entitled, "Questioning Authority, Skepticism and Science and Antidotes for Oppression."
Interesting performance/experiment ...exposing the darkness in the regular people... and as usual an interesting and thought provoking article worth reading
it is concerning to see the performace was in some Galleria Studio Morra" ...so one would expect a bit more "refined" audience being there in the first place.... yet the darkness was there...
an very true that the silence is the big problem... as it was before and today
An interesting video on the topic of enabling evil based on the works of Dietrich Bonhoeffer (from the Nazi era) might be a good watch for anyone exploring the problems
the same guy had another vid on Bonhoeffer about the theory of stupidity... there the term willful ignorance also appears (and indirectly in the above one as well).
Many people are silent because processing relevant infromation becomes prohibitively difficult.... a lot of people are silent about todays artrocities in part because finding out the details to be horrified about is too time consuming and impossible to fit in the daily grind... so the majority ignores the bad stuff...and are silent... and i guess that those in the know can exploit and engineer the situations where critical thinking is kept impossible by propaganda (information flooding shifting the overton window by desensitization)
but im still amazed how people in that performance room chose to be willfully ignorant.... did any psychiatrists got to study that particular crowd?
On the other hand crowd mentalities are a different (but i guess well investigated) topic...
and the vid suggests that what happend is actually on par with expectation and not an abberation ... how to combat this is yet another topic... if you have any suggestions im all ears...
This makes a lot more sense to me than Tutu's famous line, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."
It's troubling that so many people, in a free society, when they saw a person being abused right in front of them, and when they could have stepped in and stopped the abuse at little to no cost to themselves, chose not to do so. But in an authoritarian society, where opposing certain kinds of abuse can have serious negative consequences, it makes a lot more sense in practical terms that many well-intentioned people would keep silent, even if that may not be the ideal choice in moral terms.
Speaking and acting up is the only way to keep taboos taboo. That's why we must all ostracize overt hateful bigotry out of polite society, as we did to marginalize and defeat the KKK, or it will normalize and destroy the West.
Is me a meme? Is we all Thebean princesses, or thespeans with stage fright? The line of good and evil going through each heart or the golden mean between cowardice and bravery? "Γνῶθι σαὐτόν, μηδὲν ἄγαν, ἐγγύα πάρα δ' ἄτη" --Delphic maxims
Walked through Dachau in 1969 as an 18 year old. It left me and my 4 friends speechless. On the bus back to the train station and the train back to Munich we looked at the Germans with the same thought. WTF?????? Wtf did we just see and WFT how did you remail silent while this went on. On a much simpler level I spotted a women in a grocery parking lot who had fallen and badly cut her leg. People were walking by. I didn't. Couldn't believe it, but I also could.
It's universal my man. The majority of people no matter the ethnicity will do nothing in the face of evil which is the point of the article. Germans, Southerner during civil rights, etc. I know how you feel. My grandmother survived Auschwitz and my grandfather Dachau. I went through a lot of hatred for Germans for awhile but I have moved to a different mindset now.
Did you actually read my comment? The North US went to war against the South. My mindset is not in question. I suspect you might be "the quiet one" with your mindset
I suspect the two of you agree and are misunderstanding each other. I don't think Colin was saying it's unique to Germans. (And, in fact, even in that context it was not...given what happened in other countries as well )
It's irrational to blame an ethnicity broadly for crimes committed when they are just trying to survive a terror state. They are not all blameless but not all get the blame. It's like blaming all Americans for shit show we have with Trump. That's the mindset shift. I blame individuals not groups. It's that type of thinking that allows the Holocaust to happen.
Read it REAL SLOW. One part was about an event in 1969. Another was regarding a recent event. You need AI????? Maybe use a real profile name instead of a made up one.
You're right. Although in some cases it could, like in an online community. Or even during a pile-on, it might help to have people just support the person being targeted...just so they know they are not alone.
But you are correct that the dynamics can be a bit different.
Yes I hear some of that from some of the feminist publications here. They get attacked constantly by men online they start to believe men's silence is acceptance. Since I heard that I make it a point to confront a male asshole whenever he wants to stir shit in a feminist blog (I won't comment otherwise because women deserve to have their own space). Even if it encourages the troll I think some (not all) appreciate someone else shouldering the load to respond. Have to read the room though. Some blogs don't want me to help.
Steve: "... because women deserve to have their own space ..."
Indeed. Kind of think that the "freedom of association" principle should qualify as Trump -- so to speak -- in many cases, women's sports and social media apps -- like Sal Grover's Giggle -- for examples:
Though it kind of pisses me off that so many "main/lame-stream" media insist on calling male transvestites as "transgender women". By rights, by the definition and import of "transgender" -- i.e., gender non-conforming -- those transwomen are transgender men: feminine males. An egregious case of "2+2=5"; should be hell itself to pay for that rather big Big Lie.
Oh yes, I see men get accused of white knighting. But I respect anyone willing to stand up for anyone else.
I do think people remaining silent doesn't mean that they agree (or are even apathetic), but the perpetrators can take it as such when they experience no resistance.
Not a popular view, but one does have to ask whether many of the actions were staged. It would hardly help Abramovic's career if nothing particular happened to her. A couple of rambunctious teenagers might well behave awfully, but civilized, educated museum goers, I doubt it. The event was photographed but not filmed. Also, why only men? Why no man with a wife or girlfriend telling him to step in. Also, while it's popular to think of men as violent misogynistic savages, many men would take severe action against someone hurting a woman. I mean, they'd beat the shit of the guy who cut her. No, I very strongly think the men were part of the act and she arranged before the show who would do what.
Your essay is a powerful public service announcement, Katie. Behavioral scientists know there is a fine balance between stunned silence and appropriate intervention. Experimental work by Solomon Asch, Stanley Milgram, John Darley and Bib Latane over the last 75 years has shown how powerful and effective behaviors like the ones you suggest can be in averting disaster. This was an important part of a first-year composition and critical thinking course I taught at Berea College entitled, "Questioning Authority, Skepticism and Science and Antidotes for Oppression."
Interesting performance/experiment ...exposing the darkness in the regular people... and as usual an interesting and thought provoking article worth reading
it is concerning to see the performace was in some Galleria Studio Morra" ...so one would expect a bit more "refined" audience being there in the first place.... yet the darkness was there...
an very true that the silence is the big problem... as it was before and today
An interesting video on the topic of enabling evil based on the works of Dietrich Bonhoeffer (from the Nazi era) might be a good watch for anyone exploring the problems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwmCcsIv-L8
the same guy had another vid on Bonhoeffer about the theory of stupidity... there the term willful ignorance also appears (and indirectly in the above one as well).
Many people are silent because processing relevant infromation becomes prohibitively difficult.... a lot of people are silent about todays artrocities in part because finding out the details to be horrified about is too time consuming and impossible to fit in the daily grind... so the majority ignores the bad stuff...and are silent... and i guess that those in the know can exploit and engineer the situations where critical thinking is kept impossible by propaganda (information flooding shifting the overton window by desensitization)
but im still amazed how people in that performance room chose to be willfully ignorant.... did any psychiatrists got to study that particular crowd?
On the other hand crowd mentalities are a different (but i guess well investigated) topic...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy1Z9LvZbMM
and the vid suggests that what happend is actually on par with expectation and not an abberation ... how to combat this is yet another topic... if you have any suggestions im all ears...
Excellent article. Promotes one to think, and evaluate human behavior and ask ourselves questions about how we process the world we inhabit.
This makes a lot more sense to me than Tutu's famous line, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."
It's troubling that so many people, in a free society, when they saw a person being abused right in front of them, and when they could have stepped in and stopped the abuse at little to no cost to themselves, chose not to do so. But in an authoritarian society, where opposing certain kinds of abuse can have serious negative consequences, it makes a lot more sense in practical terms that many well-intentioned people would keep silent, even if that may not be the ideal choice in moral terms.
Speaking and acting up is the only way to keep taboos taboo. That's why we must all ostracize overt hateful bigotry out of polite society, as we did to marginalize and defeat the KKK, or it will normalize and destroy the West.
My fee for not being silent is $400/hour.
Is me a meme? Is we all Thebean princesses, or thespeans with stage fright? The line of good and evil going through each heart or the golden mean between cowardice and bravery? "Γνῶθι σαὐτόν, μηδὲν ἄγαν, ἐγγύα πάρα δ' ἄτη" --Delphic maxims
I recently wrote a short Substack piece addressing this very same question.
Your article was much more powerful. Thank You.
https://rickswenson2.substack.com/p/when-is-it-appropriate-to-disagree
A variation on the Milgram experiment, with similar results
Walked through Dachau in 1969 as an 18 year old. It left me and my 4 friends speechless. On the bus back to the train station and the train back to Munich we looked at the Germans with the same thought. WTF?????? Wtf did we just see and WFT how did you remail silent while this went on. On a much simpler level I spotted a women in a grocery parking lot who had fallen and badly cut her leg. People were walking by. I didn't. Couldn't believe it, but I also could.
I'm sadly understanding how it was possible day by day
It's universal my man. The majority of people no matter the ethnicity will do nothing in the face of evil which is the point of the article. Germans, Southerner during civil rights, etc. I know how you feel. My grandmother survived Auschwitz and my grandfather Dachau. I went through a lot of hatred for Germans for awhile but I have moved to a different mindset now.
Did you actually read my comment? The North US went to war against the South. My mindset is not in question. I suspect you might be "the quiet one" with your mindset
Nope guess not. Can you say it again. This time use AI so it makes sense to those who can read.
I suspect the two of you agree and are misunderstanding each other. I don't think Colin was saying it's unique to Germans. (And, in fact, even in that context it was not...given what happened in other countries as well )
It's irrational to blame an ethnicity broadly for crimes committed when they are just trying to survive a terror state. They are not all blameless but not all get the blame. It's like blaming all Americans for shit show we have with Trump. That's the mindset shift. I blame individuals not groups. It's that type of thinking that allows the Holocaust to happen.
Read it REAL SLOW. One part was about an event in 1969. Another was regarding a recent event. You need AI????? Maybe use a real profile name instead of a made up one.
Take your meds old man. This hatred ain't good for your heart.
It's funny that the same rules don't apply online. There is less accountability and confrontation has the opposite effect.
You're right. Although in some cases it could, like in an online community. Or even during a pile-on, it might help to have people just support the person being targeted...just so they know they are not alone.
But you are correct that the dynamics can be a bit different.
Yes I hear some of that from some of the feminist publications here. They get attacked constantly by men online they start to believe men's silence is acceptance. Since I heard that I make it a point to confront a male asshole whenever he wants to stir shit in a feminist blog (I won't comment otherwise because women deserve to have their own space). Even if it encourages the troll I think some (not all) appreciate someone else shouldering the load to respond. Have to read the room though. Some blogs don't want me to help.
Feminists bitch their asses off about performing unpaid labor and then turn around and demand it from men. Fuck those gold-digging cunts.
Steve: "... because women deserve to have their own space ..."
Indeed. Kind of think that the "freedom of association" principle should qualify as Trump -- so to speak -- in many cases, women's sports and social media apps -- like Sal Grover's Giggle -- for examples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_association
The Guardian: Transgender woman Roxanne Tickle wins discrimination case after being banned from women-only app
https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/aug/23/roxanne-tickle-v-giggle-for-girls-transgender-woman-wins-discrimination-case-against-women-female-only-app-ntwnfb
Though it kind of pisses me off that so many "main/lame-stream" media insist on calling male transvestites as "transgender women". By rights, by the definition and import of "transgender" -- i.e., gender non-conforming -- those transwomen are transgender men: feminine males. An egregious case of "2+2=5"; should be hell itself to pay for that rather big Big Lie.
Oh yes, I see men get accused of white knighting. But I respect anyone willing to stand up for anyone else.
I do think people remaining silent doesn't mean that they agree (or are even apathetic), but the perpetrators can take it as such when they experience no resistance.
Standing up for feminists is like standing up for the KKK.
Thank you for this back and forth. I am fascinated by this topic. Hope you do more